Chuck Berry Dies Aged 90

[John]

No, songwriting is imo not the most important at all.
Somebody has to sing that song good and convincing so that people like it. So imo they are at least equal.
Bob Dylan might be a very good and talented songwriter, but his singing is not even close to elvis ' or Sinatra ' artistic abilities in terms what they can do with a song.
(Bad people even say he can't sing at all, but that is a different matter).

Or do you think if an unknown Bob Dylan would have wrote Suspicious Minds and sang it by himself ...you really think it would have gone to Nr.1?
Or would be even as good as Elvis ' interpretation?
I doubt it.
No one is putting Frank Sinatra down because he didn't wrote the songs himself.
So spare me the nonsense that songwriting is "the most important thing".
An actor also has to have the lines.....or dou you think the scriptwriter would be able to deliver an academy award performance by himself if he acts in his own written script?

This is not the Rolling Stone Magazine here.
If you really think that songwriting is "THE most important thing"you surely are at the wrong forum.
You wouldn't even think to say that Frank Sinatra was less talented as an artist than ,let's say, Mark James, or would you?

No song, no Frank Sinatra, or any other singer. Songs may be good or bad, interpretations of those songs may be good or bad, but ultimately if there is no song, there is no singer. MF is absolutely correct.

[Jessie-May]

What interesting reads in here since since I last looked in here and has made me think more indepth on the subject of all music and how it can affect our lives. A world without music, good or not to the individual's taste would be a world withour love.

[Mountain Mist]

Yep, I agree, song writing and singing are at least equal, chicken and egg thing.

To me, music is good for the soul, and to play/dance, whatever is our interest/s completes it. Music settles animals down when frightened, too (so that shows how good that rhythm or melody is) or, to hear a cheerful voice, singing, out of the blue, by chance, or, good whistling (I have not heard that since a child) to me, when it is good, is all soul food.

[Mojo Filter]

Yep, I agree, song writing and singing are at least equal, chicken and egg thing.

To me, music is good for the soul, and to play/dance, whatever is our interest/s completes it. Music settles animals down when frightened, too (so that shows how good that rhythm or melody is) or, to hear a cheerful voice, singing, out of the blue, by chance, or, good whistling (I have not heard that since a child) to me, when it is good, is all soul food.

Without the chicken there would be no egg, so, the chicken is more important. I'd go further as to say that the male chicken is more important of all because he's the one who put the egg there in the first place. Though the male chicken, female chicken and the egg all play their part in the creation but without the male chicken it would not happen.

It's kind of like songwriting. The songwriter and singer all play their part. But to be able to sing a song the song has to be created first by the songwriter, so the writer is the more important, otherwise a singer has nowhere to work from. Of course when a songwriter is creating a song he needs a singer to interpret what he is creating when the demo is being made then that demo is presented to a more accomplished singer.

Leiber and Stoller were not performing artists they were just songwriters and we're not singers. If they hadn't of been in existence there would be no "Jailhouse Rock", "Hound Dog", "Love Me", "Don't", "King Creole", "Trouble" and "Loving You" etc etc. And, there would no "Yakety Yak", "Charlie Brown" and "Searchin'".

Also, Doc Pomus and Mort Shuman were not professional singers either so their would be no "His Latest Flame", "A Mess Of Blues", Little Sister" and "Viva Las Vegas" if they had not existed, and so it goes on.

So yes, the songwriter is the more important and not equal with the singer.

Btw, I've never played music to a frightened animal or seen the reaction it sets them in. Lol. I don't know what world you live in...lol

[John]

Yep, I agree, song writing and singing are at least equal, chicken and egg thing.

To me, music is good for the soul, and to play/dance, whatever is our interest/s completes it. Music settles animals down when frightened, too (so that shows how good that rhythm or melody is) or, to hear a cheerful voice, singing, out of the blue, by chance, or, good whistling (I have not heard that since a child) to me, when it is good, is all soul food.

Without the chicken there would be no egg, so, the chicken is more important. I'd go further as to say that the male chicken is more important of all because he's the one who put the egg there in the first place. Though the male chicken, female chicken and the egg all play their part in the creation but without the male chicken it would not happen.

It's kind of like songwriting. The songwriter and singer all play their part. But to be able to sing a song the song has to be created first by the songwriter, so the writer is the more important, otherwise a singer has nowhere to work from. Of course when a songwriter is creating a song he needs a singer to interpret what he is creating when the demo is being made then that demo is presented to a more accomplished singer.

Leiber and Stoller were not performing artists they were just songwriters and we're not singers. If they hadn't of been in existence there would be no "Jailhouse Rock", "Hound Dog", "Love Me", "Don't", "King Creole", "Trouble" and "Loving You" etc etc. And, there would no "Yakety Yak", "Charlie Brown" and "Searchin'".

Also, Doc Pomus and Mort Shuman were not professional singers either so their would be no "His Latest Flame", "A Mess Of Blues", Little Sister" and "Viva Las Vegas" if they had not existed, and so it goes on.

So yes, the songwriter is the more important and not equal with the singer.

Btw, I've never played music to a frightened animal or seen the reaction it sets them in. Lol. I don't know what world you live in...lol

All valid points, but actually Mort Shuman was a singer performer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQGxIiPpalA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdLG-dljYao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWZPrFLiD1U

There are many more on youtube.

[Mojo Filter]

Yep, I agree, song writing and singing are at least equal, chicken and egg thing.

To me, music is good for the soul, and to play/dance, whatever is our interest/s completes it. Music settles animals down when frightened, too (so that shows how good that rhythm or melody is) or, to hear a cheerful voice, singing, out of the blue, by chance, or, good whistling (I have not heard that since a child) to me, when it is good, is all soul food.

Without the chicken there would be no egg, so, the chicken is more important. I'd go further as to say that the male chicken is more important of all because he's the one who put the egg there in the first place. Though the male chicken, female chicken and the egg all play their part in the creation but without the male chicken it would not happen.

It's kind of like songwriting. The songwriter and singer all play their part. But to be able to sing a song the song has to be created first by the songwriter, so the writer is the more important, otherwise a singer has nowhere to work from. Of course when a songwriter is creating a song he needs a singer to interpret what he is creating when the demo is being made then that demo is presented to a more accomplished singer.

Leiber and Stoller were not performing artists they were just songwriters and we're not singers. If they hadn't of been in existence there would be no "Jailhouse Rock", "Hound Dog", "Love Me", "Don't", "King Creole", "Trouble" and "Loving You" etc etc. And, there would no "Yakety Yak", "Charlie Brown" and "Searchin'".

Also, Doc Pomus and Mort Shuman were not professional singers either so their would be no "His Latest Flame", "A Mess Of Blues", Little Sister" and "Viva Las Vegas" if they had not existed, and so it goes on.

So yes, the songwriter is the more important and not equal with the singer.

Btw, I've never played music to a frightened animal or seen the reaction it sets them in. Lol. I don't know what world you live in...lol

All valid points, but actually Mort Shuman was a singer performer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQGxIiPpalA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdLG-dljYao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWZPrFLiD1U

There are many more on youtube.

Thanks. I forgot he was a singer, though not a great one but certainly can carry a tune. He does all the singing on his demo's.

[Jessie-May]

I like Mort. I particularly like his rendition of Marie His Latest Flame. I will not venture to comment on the differences between him and the King talent and persona wise. I am impressed Mort's version as it's strong,gritty and powerful in a totally different presentation to Elvis who for me Elvis is so special.

[Mister Moon]

Jerry Leiber and / or Mike Stoller also sing on a handful of records, uncredited. Of course, Stoller played piano on many sessions.

[Colin B]

I get confused between Mort Shuman & Doc Pomus, but I think I've sussed it !

Doc Pomus is the one often seen on crutches or in a wheelchair...

[Jessie-May]

About time we had a bit of Chuck get the feet tapping this end..


https://youtu.be/Qfxmt6w0fLo

[Hard Rocker]

Chuck was good in the 50's when he wrote the same 3 songs a hundred times, although he lived off that decade for the next 50 years without doing much more. Overall, he was nowhere near Presley.

FWIW, yeah songwriting's a nice talent... but IMO ultimately it's the performance that counts.
Presley should've given writing a decent go. With his voice, he was already 90% of the way there. With an instrument like that, writing solid material would've came easily to him once he developed the rudiments.

[Colin B]

...Presley should've given writing a decent go.
With his voice, he was already 90% of the way there.
With an instrument like that, writing solid material would've came easily to him once he developed the rudiments.

He was too full of nervous energy & lacked the willpower, discipline, patience & self-control needed to sit down & compose songs !

He thrived on action !

[Hard Rocker]

...Presley should've given writing a decent go.
With his voice, he was already 90% of the way there.
With an instrument like that, writing solid material would've came easily to him once he developed the rudiments.

He was too full of nervous energy & lacked the willpower, discipline, patience & self-control needed to sit down & compose songs !

He thrived on action !

Yes, that could be said. But he was also at times a bit of a lazy arse too fond of taking the soft option! A shame really, because he had it in him. He didn't lack intelligence and had an incredible intuition for music.

[Mojo Filter]

FWIW, yeah songwriting's a nice talent... but IMO ultimately it's the performance that counts

Sure the performance is the end result...but the song has to be there in the first place for the performance to be carried out, so ultimately it's the song that's the important thing and the thing that counts most.

Totally agree with Colin about the songwriting issues with Elvis. And i totally agree with you that Elvis certainly had it in him to write a song.

[Jessie-May]

Hi all.Interesting reading the posts about song writing and performing as Ive not given this thought tbh. I wonder if Colonel Tom Parker had the whip- hand in the reason why Elvis didnt write his own songs? Maybe not as Elvis would have broke free possibly.